Cemetery John: The Undiscovered Mastermind Behind the Lindbergh Kidnapping

Welcome to the Bridgeton Beacon for this series on the Crime of the century, the Lindbergh kidnapping and the murder of Charles Lindbergh Jr. We've got former New Jersey assistant prosecutor Meg McCormick Horner interviewing various authors on the topic. This episode is part one with the author of the book Cemetery John, which is an exploration of his family's unique interaction and relationship with the Lindbergh kidnapping and a perspective on who they believe the actual kidnappers were. So this is Robert Zorn with Meg McCormick Horner. Please enjoy. 5s Other damning evidence. An artist's sketch from a description by the ransom go between 3s handwriting specimens that definitely link the Bronx carpenter with the crime 1s and written on a door. The phone number of Dr. Condon, the innocent agent who paid the ransom. Circumstantial evidence overwhelming in its impact.

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 1:38

 On March 1st, 1932, Charles Lindbergh's 20 month old son was kidnapped from his nursery on the second floor of their home near Hopewell, New Jersey. Now, almost a century later, the Lindbergh kidnapping is one of the most famous crimes to have occurred in New Jersey. The trial of Richard Bruno Hauptmann, ultimately convicted of kidnapping the baby, was called the trial of the century. And the kidnapping eventually led to the creation of what is known as the Lindbergh Law, making kidnapping across state lines, a federal crime. Here today to discuss his 2012 book, Symmetry, John, the undiscovered mastermind of the Lindbergh kidnapping is Robert Zorn. Robert, thank you so much for joining us today.

 U1

 2:38

 Thank you for inviting me. It's a pleasure to be with you.

 U2

 2:41

 I want to begin by asking you, how is it that you became interested in the Lindbergh baby kidnapping such that it led you to write your fascinating book, Symmetry, John?

 U1

 2:58

 Well, first of all, thank you for the compliment that my hands kind of tightened on the steering wheel because my father was mean, although he had a great sense of humor. He was a fellow that was very sober minded and serious and so couldn't imagine what he was going to do. 1s He said, Well, you remember how I told you that I grew up in a German neighborhood in the South Bronx? He said, Yes. I said, Well. When I was a kid, 2s a teenager, there was a man who lived three doors down from us, and he was a German immigrant named John Noel. And he had come to the States in 1925 and moved to Jackson Avenue, where our family and also just moved in 1925. And then my father was born in 1916. 1s Well, my dad's story starts really in the summer of 1931, in June of 1931. And this fellow, John Noel, took my dad on excursions. He kind of took my dad under his wing. My father was one of six kids. He had five sisters, the only boy in the family. And one day he invites my dad to go to Palisades Amusement Park in New Jersey, in North Jersey. And this was like for a kid in the middle of the Depression. This was like going to Disneyland. It was a really big deal. They had the world's largest saltwater swimming pool. John had taken my dad swimming in Yonkers before anyway, so. They go to this park? Wood said at the top of the Palisades Cliffs. And strangely, John does not go swimming there that day. So my dad goes for his swim and after finishes, he showers in the bathhouse and and changes into back into his clothes. And John and my dad are exiting the park. Well. Outside the park waiting for John are two men. One is. Is one of them is his younger brother, Walter, whom my father knew. John and Walter lived in. They rented rooms for $10 a month each from an elderly widow named Emma Schaefer. And anyway, but my dad did not know the other man, who to him seemed rather tall. 1s Anyway, the men began speaking to to one another in German, the three men, John Walt and Walter. And John knows that my dad doesn't know how to speak German because my grandparents and my father's side have been brought up in the US. Born in the US, and so German wasn't spoken in. And so John felt free and comfortable about speaking in German in front of my father with with his brother Walter and his third band. But my dad, he's a pretty astute and sharp kid. He was a very, very bright fellow who ended up being the first person in his family to go to college and ended up earning a graduate degree at Columbia University and so forth. But anyway, my dad picks up that John, the third man that is there, John is calling him Bruno. 1s And that they're talking about someplace called Englewood. Well, then John does something very strange here. He's got a kid who's 15 years old. He'd never been out of the state of New York before. It is like, you know, of course, again, this is the middle of the Depression and there was no money to be taken for a family of eight on vacations anywhere. And then John tells my father, you go on, scram, You go and go on home alone. And of course, my dad said, Well, aren't you going to come with me? He goes, No, you go on home alone. So my father was really shocked by this, and he watched him go off John go off with his brother Walter and his third guy, Bruno that he was calling Bruno. 1s So my dad is ferrying back across and he's surprised that he knew how to get back to the to the Bronx and back home. But he's touring across the the Hudson and saying himself what you know, looking at the dark waters of the Hudson, looking back at the Palisades Cliffs and the park and the Ferris wheel at the top of. And he said, what was that all about here? My, this is supposed to be my neighbor, my friend, and so forth. You know, he's taught me all about stamp collecting and help with the stamp collection. I'm hanging out with him all the time. And here he just ditches me in New Jersey. This makes no sense at all. Well, you fast forward to December of 1963. At that point, my father was the chief economist of the Republican National Committee. My father walks into he's 47 years old at this point, and he walks into his barbershop the day and night. He reaches for a magazine. And off the top of the stack is a magazine called True, and it was an article about the Lindbergh kidnapping. Now, when Bruno Hauptmann was caught in September of 1934, this is two and a half years after the Lindbergh kidnapping had taken place, was the greatest this was the greatest manhunt in history at that point in American history, the hunt for the Lindbergh kidnappers. And they all that time they were they were looking for a game. They were not looking they were not looking for 1s one person, but they were looking for a gang. They concluded that multiple people were involved in this thing. So anyway, the gist of this article was that he was no doubt involved in this thing and he went to the electric chair in 1936, April 1936. But there were likely accomplices that he had had that he never ratted out, 1s that were never caught. 1s So what happened was caught all of the investigative agencies, the New Jersey State Police, NYPD. J. Edgar Hoover's division of investigation, as the FBI was originally called, and the Treasury Department's investigative unit, they all shut down their investigations. So 1s Hampton goes to the electric chair and 1s nobody is looking for accomplices at this point. They

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 9:19

 had their man. They had their man, right. They

 U1

 9:22

 had their man. They they had spent a fortune and they were ready to have it done with 1s all these investigative units and spent incredible amounts of time and money. 2s And they they call it Helpmann. And they they then made the trial of the century, as you called it. They made a lone wolf deal. And. 2s Anyway, 1s so my dad's reading this article and he's reading 1s about. Of course he knew about the name Bruno Halpin. That name was well known. But when my father, when happened, was caught, my dad was literally his first month of college. He was the first kid in his family to go to college. He had three older sisters. So anyway, my father's reading about Bruno, and he's he's reading about how there was a man calling himself John, who had collected the the ransom in a Bronx cemetery. You now, there were two meetings between the intermediary man named Condon, John F Condon, uh, the elderly educator who my grandfather knew from the Bronx Old Timers Club. And so, so there was a fellow named John who had met with Condon at both Woodlawn Cemetery where my dad had just buried his own father in August of 1963. And then also one at Saint Raymond Cemetery, also in the Bronx. And then my dad is reading about how 1s the Lindbergh's had lived in Englewood, New Jersey. Before, while they were built with Anne Morrow, Lindbergh's very wealthy family 1s in a 40,000 square foot home while their own home near Hopewell on 389 acres in the Southland Mountains was being built. So my dad said, Wait a minute. That day in 1931, nine months before the crime took place, a guy named John is talking to a guy named Bruno about a place called Englewood. And wherever they went, we're going. I couldn't tag along. So my dad ultimately believes that he that he he came to the conclusion that cemetery, this 1s unidentified or improperly identified kidnapper known as Cemetery John, it became known as cemetery. John was, in fact, his neighbor, John Noel. So

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 11:52

 he read that magazine and the light bulb went off.

 U1

 11:57

 Yeah. Switch. And then he. Then he dove in and did the research. And my dad lived. My dad was haunted. By his belief that two men had gotten away with murder. And my father had tried to reach out to Lindbergh through a mutual acquaintance. It was a friend of my father's, Robert Anderson, who was a former secretary of the treasury under President Eisenhower. And Bob Anderson sat on the board of directors of Pan Am with Charles Lindbergh. And my dad wrote a letter to Lindbergh saying that I know I have 2s very interesting information about that sheds light on the kidnapping. And anyway, Bob Anderson handed this letter to Lindbergh at a Pan Am meeting. And this is probably not long after Lindbergh was diagnosed with lymphoma. And he really didn't want to reopen this old wound. What year would

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 12:53

 that have been? That was 1972. This is 40 years after the kidnapping. Lindbergh died in 1974. And but Lindbergh kept the letter, and it is in pristine condition in his papers at Yale, where they have 3000 boxes of the Lindbergh's papers and spent many, many, many, many days there, as well as 130 days at the New Jersey State Police Museum, where they had a quarter million files on the case. And all the, you know, the kidnap ladder, all the ransom notes, the ransom envelopes and all the other artifacts in the case there. So anyway, that is so anyway, my father tried through a close friend of his who was a former Army intelligence officer during World War II, spoke fluent German and a man named Herman Traub, who was my dad's best friend from his days at CCNY who became an attorney in New York. And Traub investigated John and spoke to him. John Noel, who was then living in New Jersey. And even again, this was in 1973, even 41 years after the crime, Noel was lying about the timing of his move to New York, still acting like someone who had something to hide. So anyway, the years went on and my dad and I started to sketch out ideas for for doing a book on this. And 2s as it turns out, he died on Christmas Eve of 2006 at the age of 90, about three weeks short of his 91st birthday. And this is one of you know, this is one thing my father really wanted to have done. It wasn't for publicity purposes, but he believed that the telling of his story would bring a measure of justice to the case. Anyways, but I held my dad's hand 1s and said, Dad, you know, I'm going to take up your investigation someday. Tell your story to the world. And at this point, he was too weak to speak. But he he looked up into my eyes and smiled and squeeze my hand and knew he was happy. So that 1s is how I got involved in this story.

 U1

 15:20

 Hey, thanks again for listening in. And this is just a quick reminder that the best place to check the show out and see all the video episodes. In this case, it's an audio episode, but we do have more information about the authors and their books. And it's all at Bridgeton beacon.com

 U2

 15:39

 And you did just that You you continued his work to find the truth of what happened. He so he began his kind of investigation, so to speak, in the early 70s. But he didn't tell you the story until 1980. Am I. Is that accurate?

 U1

 16:01

 No, it was 1960. Well, 1963 when he came across it. Right.

 U2

 16:06

 But when but when you were a. Yeah.

 U1

 16:08

 And he was you know, he had it in the back of his mind. And John had given him a lot of stamps. Uh, Lindbergh stamp. My John taught my dad all about stamp collecting. How old

 U2

 16:19

 was John? What was the age difference between John and your father?

 U1

 16:24

 Well, John was born in 1904, and my dad was born in 1916. So when when the crime was committed, John was a 27 year old man and his brother Walter was 23.

 U2

 16:35

 Okay. So he's your dad was 15. And so 1963, your dad reads the article in True magazine as he's sitting in the barber shop in Dallas at the age of 47, light bulb kind of goes off and he begins his quest to kind of find the truth. Got

 U1

 16:57

1. Amazingly, one of the amazing parts of this story is, um. 1s I was able to you know, there's only so much information that could be found out about John and Walter Noel, because they were never suspects in the case. There's quarter million files at the New Jersey State Police Museum where, as I mentioned, I've been there probably 130 times doing research. 1s So I had to go through ship records and immigration records and documents and applications to become a citizen and all this kind of stuff. And I was able to find some stuff that was pretty compelling. Like, for example, the first time Noel ever goes back to Germany, he left Germany in January 1925, and the first time he goes back to Germany. 1s He goes back in splendor on the SS Manhattan 1s and he makes his return on. He leaves Europe to return to the States on February 13th, 1935, the very day that Bruno Hauptmann is convicted in a New Jersey court of murdering Charles Lindbergh's baby. So the very day at which point, obviously from following the international newspapers, this was this this case exploded internationally. I mean, Lindbergh was by far the most famous person in the world. This was by far the most famous child in the world. And so at that point, Noelle knew for sure. That helped me, did not read about on the witness stand. So, I mean, found several details like that that were very compelling. 1s But it wasn't enough. And so the only the only option I really had was to go to his family and and through nephews. I found out I got his obituary and found out. 2s That he had had a sister named Agnes Breitling who lived. Who had lived in Mount Clemens, Michigan, and then got her obituary. And then from that, I got 1s found out that she had three sons who were still alive. And. 2s I you know, it was this was one of the more difficult cold calls I ever had to make in my life. But Call ended up calling her her son, Rudolph or Rudy, as he was known. And, you know, of course, I couldn't tell them say that, you know, my hey, my dad thought he thinks your your uncle killed the Lindbergh child. So I had to you know, I had to just say that, you know, I got him on the phone and said, is this Rudolph breathing? Is it? Yes. This is really Bradley said, Rudy, may I ask, are you the son of Agnes Brown? Well, yeah, sure am. I said, Well, man, are you? That would make you the nephew of John and Walter Noland because. Yeah. Did you know him? Said no, but my father did. And he grew up in the Bronx, three doors down from when John helped him with his stamp collection and so on and so forth. And I was just wondering, could I come meet you? And so he invited me to come to his home. And as it turned out, my best friend from my school in Dallas, Saint Mark's, lived in nearby in Bloomfield Hills, Michigan. And Rudy and his wife Sharon were in McComb, Michigan. And anyway, so I get invited to dinner and Rudy gives me a big tangent. He has this whole family to invite, invites me over, and his wife Sharon comes up and gives me a great big hug at the door. I'd never spoken to her and that was a little bit odd, but we ended up becoming the closest of friends anyway. Ended up getting information about John. I mean, he was a very, very strange fellow. Got photographs of him. Is a dead ringer to the police sketch that was done on cemetery John and through Rudy ended up meeting. John's daughter in law. John's only son with virtually no relationship, had. Had recently died and went to Tucson, Arizona to meet John's daughter in law, Adrian. And through that, I got this photograph of John sailing on the SS Manhattan in Splendor 3s dated in December of 1934, right before happens to go on trial. And then it got another photograph of John from Adrian that showed that he had a deformity in his left thumb, which was the most prominent feature described by the intermediary of symmetry. John.

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 21:51

 Let's switch gears for a minute and talk about

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 21:57

 what

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 21:57

 you learned about the the day of the kidnapping. The baby was put down to sleep and.

 U1

 22:07

 I just had a I had a had an early nap time and then would be woken up for dinner and then put back to to bed for the night and

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 22:17

 shortly thereafter was discovered missing by the nursemaid Betty gal.

 U1

 22:24

 Yes. At 10:00. Yes. That was her time to wait. That was her time to check on the child.

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 22:32

 And some indication that they thought perhaps Charles Lindbergh had played a prank. He was apparently known for his pranks. 1s And

 U1

 22:42

 then

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 22:44

 shortly, shortly thereafter, a ransom note was found.

 U1

 22:50

 Talk to me a little bit about the the ransom notes and, you know, the the initial investigation and how those ransom notes tie in to

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 23:07

 the the the idea that John Knoll was, in fact, involved with

 U1

 23:13

 Haldeman. 1s Well, you didn't do very deep detail about this, but Will from the beginning, I will just say that there was a symbol in the in in the ransom notes. 2s Um, there were 15 notes in, in total. And there were there was a symbol on wrote notes, number one, two, four, six and seven, nine, ten, 11, 12, 13 and 14. And it was a symbol composed of. Two. It was called a signature. It was referred to as a signature. In the ransom notes, it was a. 1s There are two interlocking blue circles that were stamped onto the page. They are exactly the size of half dollars. And in the area of intersection, it was a mark made with a cork. I would say it is between the size of a dime and the size of a pint. 1s You know, you'll read books about it. I've never seen it accurately described. There are two there are two little lines that are in the circles, one in each circle outside the area of intersection. And there are three holes punched through the 1s the signature one that pierces, the one that pierces the red dot 1s and cork mark and then the other two to the just outside the edges of the blue circles. And so this is a way that Lindbergh could know and the police could know that they were dealing with the bona fide kidnappers of their son rather than with copycats. 1s Where

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 25:04

 where were the ransom notes discovered?

 U1

 25:08

 Well, the Well, the first one was left on the windowsill of the baby's nursery, and then the others were then mailed from different locations. Um. 1s Uh, just, you know. 2s Again. John Noel is a philatelist, a stamp collector. This is his great passion and he knows all about cancellations and you know that he's going to confuse people by mailing some in the Bronx, some from Brooklyn, some from Manhattan and so forth. So that's that That also is, you know, a fact that. 1s That certainly 1s something a clever philatelist would have done. What's interesting to me is that in today's day and age, those notes could have been analyzed for 1s different types of forensic evidence, DNA, etcetera. And obviously, this this all occurred well before any of that. I'm interested in how the investigation and the trial would have

 U2

 26:17

 been different had the crime happened today. So the case, though, was very dependent on handwriting analysis, correct? 1s Yeah, the well, the most damning things to happen, which of course he's found with $14,600 of the $50,000 ransom. And this was 1s most of the money was squirreled away in secret compartments. Most of the money was squirreled away in secret compartments in his garage. Not a good fact for

 U1

 26:50

 him.

 U2

 26:52

 Pardon me. It's not a good fact for him, right? No, not a good fact at all. And also, there were 2s how he was a carpenter and he was he was a very talented carpenter. I mean, he was a very 1s he was a he was you know, he was not the imbecile that a lot of people have have portrayed him to be. This was a very inventive device that he created. You couldn't have found anything like it in the Sears or Montgomery Ward catalogs of the day, which was the the equivalent of Amazon back then. 1s But the ladder was made in sections that could be transported in his 1930 Dodge sedan so that the sections would nest. There were three sections that nested into one another and they could be fit into the sedan to go from the front windshield to the rear window. With a few inches to spare, and they were connected. The sections were connected with dowel pins. As it turned out, only two of the sections were needed. And the third unused section that was called Rail 16 was one of the rails. And as it turns out, that rail was once shown. There was a wood expert named Arthur Taylor, who came from Wisconsin to to do forensic work on the latter. And Taylor determined that this rail 16 was once part of the same piece of wood as a floorboard in Halpern's attic. There was a little gap in between, but you could see where the wood grain, the lines in the wood would match up. So this was a very, very, very, very. 2s Damning thing for for Albert as well. And then when Lindbergh Lindbergh, on the night that the ransom was paid, drove the intermediary Condon to Saint Raymond Cemetery. And from a distance and there was a man inside the cemetery calling out for Dr. Condon. Hey, Dr.. Uh, and anyway, Lindbergh is.

 U1

 29:20

 Catty corner, and he doesn't. He's a fellow who doesn't have good hearing. For one thing, for all those years of being an open cockpit planes, I've spoken to his his daughter, Reeve, about this. And she you know, she she said he was kind of almost deaf and, you know, in one ear. And, you know, he always would ask her to enunciate more clearly and so forth. But he did not have good his hearing was not good. But then, you know, years later, so this would have been April of 1932 when Lindbergh hears this. And then at the trial in January of 1935, Lindbergh said that was how his voice and that for and that was that was really, really. 1s Really, really bad for health. Obviously, they have this very sympathetic figure, the father. 2s Say that that was Halpern's voice, or that's 1s when he had earlier and said there's no way he'd be able to identify that he changes his tune. And it says, That's happens, boys the intermediary which

 U2

 30:34

 which is, by the way, a piece of testimony that likely would never be admissible today.

 U1

 30:40

 Yeah. Well, and and the defense attorney didn't challenge it. So mean the defense attorney did a very poor job as well. So 2s Kampmann was really in rough shape.

 U2

 30:57

 Who explained to me who Condon, Dr. Condon was and why he was chosen as the as the intermediary and was the meet up coordinated with the police, or how did that how did that transpire, if you can explain that for our listeners?

 U1

 31:14

 Sure Dr. Condon was in his early 70s. He was a retired, semi-retired educator, even a principal. Bronx schools for many years. My grandfather knew him kind of. He was kind of a big blowhard. My grandfather referred to him as an old coot. They were in this Bronx old timers club together. 2s It's kind of a social organization of man that had been in the Bronx for a long time anyway. Condon was outraged that Lindbergh's child was kidnapped, and so he had a relationship with the editor of the Bronx Home News, which was the newspaper that my dad was a newsboy a paper boy for. And anyway. 2s Condon writes a letter to the editor of the Bronx News saying that he'd like to be helpful in returning this child to his parents for $1,000 of his own money. So on and so forth. Well. 3s The Bronx Home News then publishes a page one little squib mean just the tiny, tiny little, you know, tiny little squib in the lower right hand corner of the front page saying that Dr. Condon will offer offer to. 1s Uh, act as an intermediary in the case. That isn't exactly what he did, but that's what the newspaper said. And anyway, again, my father is the guy that is the kid that is delivering the newspaper in the area. So he's dropping off copies to John Noel. And so anyway, Noel reads this this squib in the newspaper and writes a letter to Condon and saying, You may act as the intermediary. Lindbergh has said, you know, he wanted to have some mobsters get involved and be the intermediary. And one of the ransom letters that we're not going to accept any any intermediary on you from your side. You know, we're we're the ones in control. Um, and so John Noel reads this or the kidnappers read this. 1s And they write. They write a letter. The kidnappers write a letter to Condon saying that he may act as the go between. And then he writes a letter to Lindbergh saying, you know, 2s create a 1s list of instructions to follow. And

 U2

 33:55

 all these letters appear to be in the same handwriting.

 U1

 33:59

 Uh, probably. I'm not a handwriting expert. And, you know, 1s the first letter looks mean. It looks like the indifferent, the work of an indifferent people and a fifth rate grammar school. Um, might have been done with the opposite hand. Who knows? My sense is that Noel likely dictated the letters to Helpmann and then addressed the envelopes himself 1s and then mail and took charge of mailing them. That's my that is my best estimation of what happened. Um. 1s There was actually a a very high tech, sophisticated software program that was developed by. 1s A 2s software expert at the University of Buffalo. Dr.. 2s And the Knowles handwriting was was compared to the handwriting on the ransom envelopes. And there was a 96% probability that Nikhil wrote those. But wow, I don't I don't think that he wrote the. I think he most likely dictated the letters to happen. That's what is. And, you know, the handwriting analysts in the Lindbergh case said that this was Lindbergh that was helping handwriting in the in the ransom notes. But anyway, so 2s the so Condon calls up the Lindbergh residence late, late in the night and says he's got this letter. And then he describes this this strange symbol in the lower right hand corner. And they know immediately that this is the right people. So Condon comes out to the Lindbergh home very late at night, gets there well past midnight, and Lindbergh sees that the symbol matches that of the earlier ransom notes. And he agrees to have Condon be the intermediary. So that's how Condon got involved.

 U2

 36:09

 Was. Was there only the one? I'll call it a meetup, so to speak, to.

 U1

 36:16

 To

 U2

 36:17

 give the ransom money over, or was there more than one meetup? There

 U1

 36:21

 were two. The money had not yet been assembled. And, uh. But Condon thought 1s that the. It was a good idea to go ahead and meet with the representative of the kidnappers anyway. And so he did, although they didn't have the money. So they met the first time at. Woodlawn Cemetery and 1s John Knoll was inside the cemetery. John was inside this. And again, this is a magnificent cemetery anyway. 2s John gets spooked by a guard inside the cemetery and leaps over. This is an amazing leap over the gate. The front gate at the corner of two 33rd and Jerome Avenue and runs across the street into Van Cortlandt Park. So anyway, John agrees to send the baby's sleeping suit, which he had taken off the baby. 1s And he said that that way you'll know that we have it. And of course, this is not proof of life. And 2s anyway, they send the sleeping suit and they arrange to have a second meeting at the second meeting at Saint Raymond Cemetery in the Bronx is where the $50,000 is is 1s handed over.

 U2

 37:47

 And that was the total amount of ransom money that was provided to the purported kidnappers,

 U1

 37:54

 correct? Correct. They had raised it from 50 to 70. And then Condon. At the second meeting 1s negotiated John down from 70 to 50 and which infuriated the the Treasury Department individuals because he took out the $50, $450 bills, which would be the most 1s difficult to pass. And maybe they were these were all gold certificates and which ultimately, after President Roosevelt took office and got us off the gold exchange gold standard, these became illegal to do have all these ransom notes excuse me, these gold certificates and gold coins. And so this was part of the Treasury Department's brilliant strategy, even though at the time of the kidnapping, they were not illegal, but they they were hoping that this would this was what would happen. And sure enough, it did. And Halpin was ultimately caught passing a $10 gold note at a Warner Quinlan gas station in upper Manhattan within the the. Gas station attendant became a little suspicious of Hartman, and he wrote down the license plate for you. 1341. On the back of it. And ultimately, that got traced back to Hartman. That's how he got caught. We're law enforcement involved in the

 U2

 39:29

 two meetups at all.

 U1

 39:32

 No. Lindbergh refused to allow. 1s He just wanted his child back. He didn't care about the prosecuting. If he got his child back, he was going to be happy. Of course, the child was. Was was long dead by then, which obviously he did not know. But no, he refused to allow the authorities to get involved. And of course, you would not never be able to do that. Well, I

 U2

 39:58

 was just going to say, I mean, we're law enforcement aware of what he was doing because of So they it does seem like they deferred and understandably so to some extent looking back. But I don't I don't think that that would that would be permitted now today.

 U1

 40:14

 Yeah, clearly not so. Did

 U2

 40:16

 Condon did Dr. Condon testify at the trial?

 U1

 40:20

 He did. Interestingly, when he when he got caught, he said, no, this is not the man. But the prosecutor got a very ambitious 1s young guy, 39 year old guy named David Whelan. Still, there's a huge law firm in New Jersey bearing his name. Uh, this was a very big deal for him. He wanted to become a big Democratic Party kingpin again and kingmaker. And 1s he was going to do whatever. Whatever it took. And so he ended up changing his tune. And he was I'm sure he was presented with a lot of evidence that showed that that he was involved, the latter, the money and handwriting and so forth. So he changed his tune.

 U2

 41:13

 In what way? On the stand or.

 U1

 41:16

 Well, he said that John Brennan. Richard Hoffman. 2s Understand. So he completely changed his tune. Hee hee hee

 U2

 41:26

 hee. Had previously given a statement indicating otherwise.

 U1

 41:30

 Yeah. Mean. 1s Yeah. So. So he did that and that was. 2s It happened. Had you just been shaking his head as he's watching this? This is a nightmare. And

 U2

 41:43

 there's so many there's so many laws now, rules now related to 1s out of court identifications and court identifications. ET cetera. So that's another just interesting observation as to how the trial may have gone differently had it been held today. You know, these evolution of these identification type of laws, that's one

 U1

 42:08

 thing. There is not There's no electric chair and there's no death penalty in New Jersey. Now, that's

 U2

 42:13

 that is true. That is true. Hoffman Hoffman, never give a statement.

 U1

 42:19

 He said. Um. 1s Well, he proclaimed his innocence to the end. Right.

 U2

 42:26

 As did his wife, till her death.

 U1

 42:28

 Well, it's very clear. I mean, I don't think he was. He was convicted. 1s 100% on circumstantial evidence. I don't think he thought he was going to get convicted. And so then he would have had if he had. And 1s if he had then confessed to having been involved in this thing, then he would have had to tell his wife, I've been lying to you all along. He would have then lost the support of the German American community, which is supporting him greatly. They would have thought he was a rat. And then what? He was also very concerned about his family name and his name of his. He he had his own toddler son at the time who was born in 1933, the year after the kidnapping. And he wanted his his son to believe that he had been. 1s That he had been unfairly, unjustly convicted, wrongfully convicted, and for the rest of her life, and then tried to clear his name with no great success. But this was what was told to this man for help and all his life.

 U2

 43:39

 Trial of the century. Wow. Well, thank you so much, 1s Robert, for sharing. What led you to this fascinating story and and the research that you uncovered? It's I as I shared with you before we started recording, just became interested. And in this because I am a former prosecutor, current criminal defense attorney in New Jersey and and wanted to do a series on this podcast, New Jersey criminal podcast about the most famous case in New Jersey, the trial of the century that happened right here. And so I'm just kind of scratching the tip of the iceberg here in my, 1s you know, education on this case and had a general idea of how I wanted to go about learning about it. And I thought the best way to do it would be to speak with speak with the experts. And so just so grateful for you, to you for sharing the story. I, I would encourage my listeners to read Cemetery John the Undiscovered mastermind of the Lindbergh kidnapping. And Robert, you are just so well known and well respected on this topic. And I I'm honored that you took so much time to walk us through your story and more importantly, the story of the kidnapping and murder of Charles Lindbergh's child. Well, my pleasure. So nice to be with you today. And thank you so much for the invitation. It was a it was a joy and a pleasure. Thank you, Robert.

 U1

 45:20

 Thank you for joining us for this conversation about New Jersey true crime in history.

 U2

 45:27

 Come back for our next conversation with Judge Lisa Pearlman and her book, The Lindbergh Kidnapping Suspect number one, The Man Who Got Away. The link to purchase the book is just below the episode on this page here at the Bridgeton Beacon. But if you're listening in iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts, it's at the very top of the descriptive texts will take you to the Bridgeton Beacon so you can learn about the book, learn about the author, purchase the book. Thanks for listening in. We hope you come back for our conversation with Judge Lisa Pearlman in our next episode.