Atlantic City Serial Killer - S Jersey True Crime

James Leonard Esq (00:01.73)

This is a special South Jersey True Crime edition of the Bridgeton Beacon. Viewer discretion is advised.

 

Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Louis Casadia. I'm a criminal trial attorney in the South Jersey area. Today we got attorney Jim Leonard here. He's going to be talking about one of his seminal cases that he handled, State versus Terry Olsen. Jim, why don't you introduce yourself?

 

Lou, thanks for having me. My name is James Leonard. I'm a criminal practitioner. I've been practicing out of Atlantic City, Atlantic County, South Jersey for the better part of 23, 24 years. Criminal law is my primary practice area. I do domestic violence. I appear in family court. I do DV trials, restraining orders. I do some entertainment law. I bounce around quite a bit. Superior municipal federal courts all over the state, but primarily

 

based out of Atlantic County in South Jersey.

 

You want to talk about your your celebrity for a little bit or

 

James Leonard Esq (01:13.498)

Yeah, so in addition to, you know, the criminal work, I've done some entertainment law over the last 10 to 15 years, known primarily for working with and representing Teresa Judice from the Real Housewives of New Jersey, who is a client of mine to this day, a very dear friend, someone that I respect. Having worked with her for the last decade, I would say has brought me some of my most rewarding work, some of my most...

challenging work, but it has been a privilege to work with her and her family. I hold them very near and dear to my heart. But we're here today to talk about another case that I would say prior to me getting involved with Ms. Judice and that world, I got involved with this case that was based off of a tragedy actually of four women that were found dead behind a stretch of motels in West Atlantic City.

here in Atlanta County back in November of 2006. And I got involved in April of 2007, representing an individual who was deemed a person of interest in that never formally charged, but labeled a person of interest, you know, pictured on the front pages of the newspaper back when newspapers were actually a thing and people bought them and

paid attention to them, local news, Philadelphia news, national news, national news programs, like 48 hours. It was a very big case. Certainly at that time, back in 2007, you know, the biggest thing that I was involved with.

And how did you become involved? How did you end up getting hired in the case?

James Leonard Esq (03:03.79)

So I remember, I actually remember driving down to Atlantic City the night that they found the bodies. I was actually coming down, spend time with family. were having a, we were actually playing cards. And I remember being on the expressway and just being distracted by lights and sirens and the illumination of lights that it looked.

It looked like they were filming a movie, if I'm being honest with you. And I, I drove past it, not having any idea what I was driving past. I would learn the next day in the newspaper that they found four women. And obviously this was the crime scene. I was not the original attorney of Mr. Olson. He had another attorney who was based out of Salem County. I received a phone call as I remember it from a family member who asked me if I would.

to Salem County Jail to see him. And I had been in county jails, Atlantic County, Camden County, everywhere for a number of years as I was practicing by that point, you know, six years or so. When I went to the Salem County Jail, I'll never forget this, and I'd been there before, and I've been there many times since, but when I went there and I told them who I was there to see, they took special precautions.

as if I was going to see, you know, Hannibal Lecter. And they gave me a device that I can only describe as I remember it. It was shaped like a grenade. And they said that when I'm having a meeting with this individual, this device needed to remain on the table between he and I. So I said, well, you know, what's that for?

 

And they said, in the event that there is any sort of disturbance or physical altercation and the device gets knocked on its side, that will alert us to come. I said, I don't think I'm worried about, I'm not worried about that. And they said, you can't go in without it. It's you, there's no visit without it. said, give me the device. We went in, I'm waiting for him. They bring him in and knowing that he's

 

James Leonard Esq (05:29.216)

allegedly involved with these murders. I don't know what to expect, but what I got was someone who immediately came up to me as someone that not only was not involved in this, but was not capable of such an act. And I can't really describe that, but just being in the presence of somebody that would have taken four lives, you would expect something about them when they walk in the room and I did not.

 

feel that right away. We have a conversation. He tells me he's adamant that he was not involved in this. This was, you know, the papers got it wrong. The police got it wrong. There was some different things going on and I believed them. I really believed them when he told me that he had been questioned by the detectives intensely for anywhere from six to eight hours without a lawyer, never asked for a lawyer.

 

because he had nothing to hide. If that wasn't enough, then he told me, well, I offered them my DNA. I said, take my DNA, you can have it. I have nothing to hide. And all of this led me to believe, including my gut instinct, there's no way this is the guy. So we ended up making some.

 

How did, how was he, why was he developed as a suspect in the first place?

 

So, in West Atlantic City at that time, not today, but at that time, there was a stretch of seedy motels. And the women, there were four in total that were found behind those motels. So along like a dirt path and a little, I'm not gonna call it, it's a stream of water, right? But it's more of like a drainage ditch. And this is between the...

 

James Leonard Esq (07:21.762)

Black Horse Pike in the Atlantic City Expressway, he at that time or for a period of time around that time was working as a handyman in one of the hotels. And the story was that his room or his door actually backed up to the area in which these women were found. So the theory was, you know, he had proximity to the location. He was there.

 

And you know, they thought they had developed some other things that made him look like the guy. But if my gut reaction wasn't what it was, him speaking without a lawyer wasn't what it was, when he told me that he offered to give them DNA, I felt really comfortable that the guy that I'm now going to represent, the guy that I'm sitting here with, is not the guy. So the conversation ends up.

 

making small talk, I tell him I'm gonna get involved, I'm asking him about himself, we're just making generic small talk and we're now getting ready to wrap up and I'm grabbing my stuff and my papers or my file, whatever, ends up knocking the device that separated us down. I had forgotten all about this thing, right? So it just is on its side, it doesn't make any noise, it's just no longer standing upright, it's on its side. So we're talking and

 

I hear this thunderous, it literally sounded like horses were coming towards us. And I'm like, I'm like, what is that sound? And he's like, I don't know. I've never seen it. I don't know what it is. And I'm thinking, what is it? is it? found out exactly what it was because out of the corner of my eye, here comes the officers in riot gear, helmets, masks, and they are

 

found out what it was pretty quick.

 

James Leonard Esq (09:18.324)

anticipating that Hannibal Lecter is attacking me and they're going to save my life. Meanwhile, the lawyer knocked the thing over. I'm jumping up in front of them, waving my hands, you know, telling them to stop, stop. I'm actually getting in front of him because I don't know what they're going to do. And I I'm saying I knocked the thing over, relax, stop. And they stop. They were not happy with me at all. I got screamed at the entire walk.

 

back out of there and in the lobby to get my keys, but that's how I met my client and that's, that was our first meeting. So,

 

Why was he in the Salem County Jail?

 

So he was never actually charged here in Atlanta County, but what happened was he was from Salem. When they developed him as a person of interest in this Atlanta County investigation, they executed a search warrant on his home and he was charged down there with an invasion of privacy charge, which I believe was a fourth degree charge. There was some issues there, but.

 

They gave him an insanely high bail. A really high bail. Because the thinking was they're eventually going to charge him with these murders. And I was very aggressive and very loud about this isn't a bail, it's a ransom. I was maybe, you know, hot dogging it a little bit. And I ended up getting him relieved. I don't remember what the timeframe was, but it was within a couple of months.

 

James Leonard Esq (10:53.176)

Cause we also did something else. We also did something else in Atlanta County, even though he had volunteered his DNA during his initial interrogation, the Atlanta County prosecutor's office filed a motion to compel his DNA, which we had voluntarily offered to give it to them. So we had a hearing. remember that hearing was in June of 2000.

 

seven or 2008. don't No, we did not. And we actually, we use the hearing to say, we volunteered it. They can have it. shortly thereafter, we ended up getting him released and he's been free ever since God willing. And it's never been charged and, lives a great, know, lives his life. but is, was not, was never involved in this case, but my involvement in the case took

 

Do you oppose the hearing?

 

James Leonard Esq (11:51.394)

some very interesting turns and had a lot of contact with individuals that some said they were responsible, some said they knew who were responsible. I had a call within the last 90 days that I passed on to the prosecutor's office of somebody identifying someone they thought was a suspect. But there was one person in particular that I had a unique

 

connection with in this case. So when we were appearing in court, there was a woman who was, and she's, she's the theist. I'm not going to mention her name, but she was a very well-known prostitute in Atlantic city, right? She had done television shows and documentaries about Atlantic city. And she was, if you were in Atlantic city and you were a police officer or you were familiar with that area, you were familiar with this woman. was well-known.

 

He had come to court when we went to court and she gave an interview saying I was with him, he was a customer of mine and he told me he did horrible things and he told me that he was at a foot fetish because the interesting part about the foot fetish was all four of these women were found without shoes. All four of these women were found.

 

without shoes and they were all facing in the eastern direction. So they were facing towards Atlantic City and some FBI profiler at the time came up with some theory about why they were all facing east, which I don't really think there was much to that, but none of them had shoes. So the other prevent...

 

the theory from the FBI as to why they were pointing east.

 

James Leonard Esq (13:41.976)

So the theory, which sounds ridiculous at this time, is that the killer may have been of Middle Eastern descent, and he was facing all of the women towards Mecca. I thought that was the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life, and I only heard it from one person, and he was a retired profiler. With all due respect, I thought it sounded insane to me.

 

There's about a little bit of grasping at straws there trying to make sense of something that probably just means nothing.

 

Correct. I don't think there was any religious connotation to what happened here, but this woman, she comes to court and she gives an interview outside the hallway.

 

Can I ask you real quick? Was Terry Olsen, was he Muslim in religious practice?

 

Absolutely not.

 

Louis Casadia Esq (14:35.074)

That theory didn't even help the state, right? So you were saying about the witness.

 

That's Correct.

 

James Leonard Esq (14:42.51)

She gives an interview and they asked me what I think of her interview and I said some things that were not nice about her, attacking her credibility, so on and so forth. We go home.

 

Maybe two months later, my office is in Atlantic City. My office is three or four blocks away from the area where most of these women were last seen, right? On Pacific Avenue. I'm on Atlantic Avenue, but it's about four blocks away. So I'm stopped at a red light and I look over and I see the woman that I just described coming towards my car. So I'm like, I don't want to talk to this person. I don't want to be seen with this person.

 

and she starts knocking on my pretend I don't see her she starts knocking on my window

 

James Leonard Esq (15:34.986)

I pretend I don't see her. She comes knocking on my window. I don't want to be seeing with her, but she's knocking on the window. Yeah, roll down the window. I got to talk to you. She says I said, well, do me a favor. Come to my office. They tell her my office is I'm going there now. You can come there, but I'm gone. I'm not going to sit there and talk to her. Right. So yeah, that's a minute later, the secretary for those.

 

For those watching, just to understand, when you're an attorney, and you're especially in a high profile case like that, you do not want to talk to witnesses by yourself because it could just create all sorts of problems for you.

 

You also don't want to be seen in broad daylight talking with a very well known...

 

I mean, that's another layer too. Yeah, I mean, definitely don't want that but continue.

 

I couldn't get out of there fast enough. I couldn't get out of there fast enough. So the secretary tells me this person is here. Right. Comes back and she says, this is where it gets actually pretty interesting. So she comes back and she says, I made a mistake. They said, okay, it wasn't your guy. I said, tell me why. Now what she doesn't know is when I got involved in the case,

 

Louis Casadia Esq (16:27.67)

I only imagine, like...

 

James Leonard Esq (16:54.126)

I gathered as much material as I could find. Now I'm involved in April of 07. They find the bodies in November of 06. So, and this meeting that I'm having with her is sometime between June and October. I think of 07. Okay.

 

So you gathered materials, what materials did you gather?

 

So there were a ton of newspaper articles written about the incident. Right. He is interviewed in one of them and her name is mentioned. Like I said, she was extremely well known at that time. was just somebody that was part of the fabric of Atlantic city, right? For whatever she did, she did, but people knew who she was. she gives an interview the day after.

 

bodies are found to the New York Post, which I had the interview. Right. In it, she talks about being with a man who was a customer who said he had done horrible things. Right. Had a foot fetish, so on and so forth. All the same things that she said about my client in her interview. But she gives a description and the description is contained in the article.

 

She said he had a really big beer belly. My client doesn't have a beer belly. He had a beard. My client, I don't believe had a beard at that time, I don't remember. Was wearing sunglasses and she said was wearing a hat, a black hat with a gold insignia. So she described somebody and she's describing that person's not my client. So when she tells me that she made a mistake in my office, I said, well,

 

James Leonard Esq (18:48.526)

Tell me, tell me why. How'd you make a mistake? She said because your client is in jail and I recently spoke to the guy that I was talking about so I now know it wasn't your client. Okay, so you spoke to Yeah. So, do you got his name? No. Blah, blah, He just called, he calls me when he comes to jail.

 

Did she have a nickname for him?

 

Well, this gets very interesting. I'm telling you, this gets very interesting. So I said, all right, great. I said, well, one day maybe you can come in here and in the same way that you put it all out there, maybe you can put it all out there that you got the wrong guy, right? Fast forward, we get my guy released and we do 48 hours. We do an episode of 48 hours. I think it was called Beyond the Boardwalk, something like that.

 

I'm featured on it. There's a bunch of people on it. They put her on it. They put her on it. Okay. I'm not mistaken at this point. She might still be telling the story about my guy. I forget the timeline, but that's not really important.

 

So at that point she was mistaken about being mistaken.

 

James Leonard Esq (20:06.452)

Or shortly thereafter. But what ends up happening is in my office, in the very office that I'm sitting in now, I hold a press conference. I invite her, I invite my client, and I invite the husband of one of the deceased four women. And all the media people come. And she apologizes to my client. And she says, it's not him, so on and so forth. And the husband of one of the women.

 

says, I don't believe it's him or something along those lines, but I want to put the attention back on finding whoever did this, which by the way, way too much attention was given to my client and whether he was or wasn't. And in my opinion, never enough attention given to these four women and their families. Four women, several of them, I believe were mothers. They were sisters. They were daughters. Some of them were wives.

 

These were real people and they'd fallen on some hard times and some challenges.

 

I'll just ask you real quick about those women. they all, was it alleged that they were all also prostitutes or were they?

 

They were all, they were all prostitutes. That was what was reported at the time. And in large part, it was like they were forgotten in all of this. And so anyway, fast forward now, I remember this because this is a very critical day. I

 

James Leonard Esq (21:44.142)

I tell my office on this particular day, I'm leaving. I'm leaving. Um, I'm doing something that day and I don't want to be interrupted unless it's an absolute 911 emergency. need a day. Leave me big. Don't call me with the normal stuff. Give me one day. Sure enough that day by noon, the office is calling with a 911 emergency and the 911 emergency is that woman. Yeah.

 

The woman that we're talking about was demanding to speak to me. She was in the office and wouldn't leave until she spoke to me. my I get on the phone and she said, I just want you to know the guy that I've been talking about is coming to Atlantic City tonight. I'm going to meet with him. And this is the kicker. I've already reached out to America's Most Wanted. They're coming down. They're coming down to get him on video.

 

So I said, wait, what? She said, absolutely. I, I had a relationship with one of the producers when they were investigating the story. I just wanted you to know. said, well, now I guess I'm going to come down to Atlantic city. So I reach out to the America's most wanted producers. get the numbers. They're on their way from DC the whole bit. Right.

 

She, now remember the description I gave you, the beer belly, the beard, the hat, black hat, insignia, sun lists. She calls me and says, I'm gonna be at this particular location. So I had a private investigator who worked with me at the time who was a former police officer. He said, I'm gonna call a police officer and have them go and at least like do surveillance. Police officer does one better.

 

He sees the two of them and the gentleman that she's with is drinking an open container in public. So he gives them a citation. But in doing that, he gets his name. He gets his identifiers. My investigator is over there taking pictures from afar. America's most wanted is still on the way down.

 

James Leonard Esq (24:06.744)

So when the guy comes back to my office, he shows me the pictures. Beer belly, check. Beer, check. Sunglasses, check. Now, remind you, this is a year after she gives this exact description to the New York Post. Here's the kicker for me. He's wearing a New Orleans Saint baseball hat. Black hat with a gold insignia. Not only is it the same guy,

 

He's wearing, in essence, the exact same outfit a year later. So America's Most Wanted comes down. They actually use my office as a staging. So they get all this stuff set up. They bring a very attractive female correspondent who is going to go undercover. This is what they're going to do. So I'm not going to mention the name of the establishment because they probably wouldn't want the notoriety. Can I ask?

 

I just like, at this point, at this point, is the prosecutor's office aware of what's happening or are they involved at all?

 

We're going to come back to that point in a second. I got you. All right. They were not, they were not real thrilled with what I'm getting ready to tell you. Okay. They got to remember this is when I first got involved with the case. Jeff Blitz was the prosecutor after Mr. Blitz. was prosecutor. How's little God rest his soul. Right. Right. So I was involved at Blitz into the transition to how's all.

 

I don't remember who the prosecutor was at this time. It may have been Halsall, but it may have been Blitz. I don't remember when they, you when that happened. But so the America's Most Wanted is going to go to where he is and they're going to send this very attractive correspondent who's wearing a microphone and a camera to engage him. So he is sitting on a porch of a, we'll call it a local hotel that has like a porch, like a rooming house.

 

James Leonard Esq (26:12.866)

type thing. Okay. He drives up. He's there and she's trying to do something with her car. She's pretending that her car won't start. So this guy, this guy, our guy comes off of the porch and offers to help gets himself on camera, gets close to her. She pops the hood. The car is nothing wrong with the car anyway.

 

He tells her what to do. She starts to core up magically. It works. She says, I'm so grateful. Thank you. You know, what can I, what can I call you? What's your name? So he refers to himself as you. He says to her, you can call me river darling. Those are his exact words. You can call me river darling. So he's calling himself river. Okay. She leaves. They come back.

 

They got him on video, blah, blah. Night's over. Right? Night's over. So now they got the guy on video. They got his name from the open container citation. I call the prosecutor's office. I'm expecting like a pat on the back, know, like good work.

 

They're not happy. No, you're not kidding. They're not happy. No, no way.

 

They don't like any of this. They don't like any of this, right? Right. So, whatever, a month goes by, a full month. Secretary calls, the lady's back in the office, she has to see you, it's an emergency. Bring her back, and she comes in, and she's got something in her hand. She has a card in her hand, like a birthday card, in an envelope.

 

James Leonard Esq (28:05.964)

And I said, what's this? She said, he wrote me a letter. He wrote me a letter. I said, the guy wrote you a letter? Yeah. Well, he gave me a cord. So I opened the cord up. Now.

 

her name and address are on the front. It's postmarked from Florida, right? So I know she didn't do this because she never leaves Pacific Avenue, right? Postmarked from Florida, her name and address. I opened it up.

 

killing when I open it up. It's on the out on the outside of the card or feel angels. Now remember, talking about fear, the seized women. So they're fear angels, right? Like, like that. And it might have been one angel that was like ascending to heaven. But there was four silhouettes of the angels 1234. Right?

 

open the card up. forget what the card said, you know, by Hallmark, whoever makes the card, but handwritten, it says to the woman from the man, thanks for the CD. So I say to her, what's he talking about? She said, he wanted the DVD of the 48 hours. He knew I had it. He left with the DVD.

 

So I'm like, why would he want that? She's like, he was the guy, I'm telling you. So I opened, I go back to the envelope and I look at the return address, his return address. Some address in Florida, which by the way, it was not real, because we looked it up, wasn't real. But as his name at the top, he puts the river man, okay? Now.

 

James Leonard Esq (30:03.084)

refers to himself as River with the America's Most Wanted correspondent. So while she's standing over my desk, I Googled the River Man. The River Man is a book and a documentary about the Green River killer who hunted prostitutes in Seattle, Washington, or outside of Seattle, Washington, and dumped their bodies in the Green River. There's a body of water there. All four of these women were prostitutes.

 

and they were partially submerged in this, you know, stream if you will. So I'm like, wait a second, this guy is nicknaming.

 

Did they catch the river man in?

 

They caught the green river killer. They caught the green river killer. The river man is writing this woman a letter. So now I'm like, if you're going to come up with a nickname, you're going to name yourself after a serial killer that kills prostitutes. You're going to spend time with a prostitute. You're going to talk to her about a foot fetish. All the boxes are being checked. And by the way, all of this is good for my client.

 

Because if he's the guy that did it, my guy didn't do it. Right. I'm like, plus, you know, four women are dead. Right.

 

Louis Casadia Esq (31:22.584)

Can we back up real quick? just want to go back. The four, for the 60 minutes.

 

Howard-

 

48 hours, sorry. Other than, you know, pretending their car was broken, talking to the guy, getting his, like, nickname, did he say anything to them? Or did they, like, did anything come No.

 

Now that was that was America's most wanted. Now here's the irony of that. They filmed that segment. Right. And America's most wanted ceased to exist. Months later, it never made the air. OK. So I described to you never made the air. It's in some archive somewhere.

 

I gotcha. So what was I mean, was something said in that segment that would be evidentiary if they ever charged him with something?

 

James Leonard Esq (32:10.602)

Other than him referring to himself as River. Right. Right. So, so now I feel like, you I'm not a detective, I'm a lawyer, but I'm like, this is pretty good. Call the prosecutor's office again. Somebody comes out to my office. I'll never forget. I've got in an, I've got in a bag, the envelope, the car, the original figured maybe he licked the envelope. There's DNA. You've already got his name.

 

Gotcha.

 

James Leonard Esq (32:41.324)

See, I know you got DNA from the crime scene because you took my client's DNA. So why not? They were not happy. They were pissed. They were pissed. And so they wanted me to shut up. They wanted me to shut up. And there was a divide in that office at that time of people that I think thought my guy was the guy. And then there was others that didn't think he was the guy.

 

they want

 

James Leonard Esq (33:10.132)

I can tell you that a very, very, very well respected FBI agent who's now retired, who I have a relationship, professional relationship with told me unequivocally, my guy was not the guy and he never subscribed to that theory even in the beginning. But there were some that did and to this day.

 

I can tell you from personal experience and for the audience I was a prosecutor for seven years before I started my practice. Once the police have a theory on the case and they start really going down that rabbit hole, it is very difficult for them to change course. I'm surprised that you were in that position.

 

So.

 

And listen, we're going on, this is almost 20 years ago of them finding the bodies and so on. We're approaching, in October it'll be 19 years, right? So.

 

I will say this to the credit of the subsequent administrations of the, because started off with prosecutor Blitz, prosecutor Housel, God rest his soul. Then it went to prosecutor McLean. Right. Then it was prosecutor Tyner, now prosecutor Reynolds. I have spoken with detectives in every administration dating back to Blitz about this case. It's been assigned, reassigned.

 

James Leonard Esq (34:32.532)

I can tell you that I had contact within the last 90 days. So this is 19 years later. Yeah. With an investigator working it now recently about a call that I got passed it on. And I can tell you that they are very eager to solve it. Right. So I think.

 

I did see, and even when I was at the office, there was definitely an effort to work on the case, even though it was so old. And I won't get into the specifics of what they were doing, because I don't know if that's public, definitely, like they were spending time on it. So did they take the card from you then, Jim?

 

They did. They actually took it. gave them anything that I've ever developed as a lead, including by the way, recently a call that I passed that on. I'm always going to pass on what, somebody gives me. had somebody just to back it up. I had someone who's now deceased as well. Call me from the jail. Tell me that they did it. I went in to see him with an investigator. We recorded it. He admitted it.

 

Turns out they didn't believe that it was him. is somebody completely different.

 

Like that guy that that gave that confession did he It was our reason you could tell me was he's looking for attention

 

James Leonard Esq (35:58.828)

I don't know if he was looking for attention or what. mean, this was a big thing. This was in all the newspapers. mean, look, I think there's better ways to get attention than admitting to four murders that you probably didn't commit, right?

 

When was that that he gave that statement?

 

Within a year or so of the, yeah, I got you. was, contemporaneous to the time. I do know that they investigated him and they found out that whether he'd been in jail at one point or had relocated that he wasn't the guy. they dismissed him, had a guy from a state prison in another state reach out. I did it. I want to

 

I give the information to the prosecutor's office. actually think they might have flown out to this state to interview him. Right. Wasn't him. Lou, there's something that you're learning here today. Apparently, there are people out there that like to admit to being serial killers when they're not serial killers. So I think those people need to find some hobbies.

 

Let me back up a little bit. I just have a couple questions about the women. So they find these four bodies, they're all facing east. Did they determine that they were all killed like in the same night where they killed like at different points in time?

 

James Leonard Esq (37:24.76)

So that's a good question. So they, don't know where the women were killed. They never actually, I don't believe they know where the women were killed. I don't believe, and I think that's one of the challenges that has always existed with this case is I don't believe they're aware of a crime scene. They know where the bodies were dumped. Each of the women were in different stages of decomposition. So it's November, they're in the partially submerged in water.

 

Yeah. So they weren't all dumped at the same time or in this, they were all dumped within like, let's say a hundred yards of one another, give or take, but they weren't on top of each other. Correct. They were all within, let's say 50 to a hundred yards of one another, all without shoes, all facing the same direction and in various stages of decomposition.

 

And how are they found?

 

So I wouldn't advise this to anybody listening, but apparently if you're going down the Black Horse Pike and the expressway are parallel to one another, there was, and there still is, like a dirt trail that you can walk. So apparently people that live in that West Atlantic City area, not where the motels are, but across the street, there's like condos and stuff, would routinely go back there and walk.

 

like it was like a track. Right. And two women, two, you know, women that are not part of that underworld, two women that were actually out exercising came across the first body. Right. Freak out, call 911. I think, I think they saw the second body. Yeah. Police come, they get rid of the women. And if I'm not mistaken, the police find bodies three and four, because again, there, there's some distance.

 

Louis Casadia Esq (39:19.242)

cause of death.

 

I believe it was something along the lines of them being asphyxiated or strangled, something like that.

 

Okay, I got it. So, are you aware, did they ever get either from the envelope or separately from the Riverman and the DNA sample to test against what they may have had?

 

So this is my theory and this is complete speculation. think that the DNA, whatever DNA they gathered way back when, I believe was compromised because of the elements of the fact that these women are outdoors for a period of time or submerged in water. So while they were gathering DNA, I don't know what the quality of the sample

 

would have been to compare it. I don't know what they did or didn't do with the envelope. I do know with my guy, gave his DNA in 2007 or 2008. Obviously he's free. So it tells you what it tells you either. He wasn't the guy.

 

Louis Casadia Esq (40:30.506)

There's no DNA maps there.

 

Right. So, you know, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. Right. So, and then, you know, when there was the murders of women who also, I believe were involved with prostitution in New York on Long Island, the Giglio beach, there was some thinking that it was the same person. I was led to believe that that person's DNA did not match with this, which leads me to believe then that maybe they do have DNA, but

 

Those are not related. They did explore that one. They did explore that one. Right, right.

 

So, at what point did you know that they weren't gonna charge your client? Did they tell you, like, hey, we're moving on from your client? Or is it just kind of like, well, it's been a year, I guess they're not charging them.

 

So early on, early on, it was palpable that they were going to charge him. Right. And I remember having conversations with Prosecutor Housel about the case. And it appeared that, you know, at least in his opinion, charges were potentially going to happen.

 

James Leonard Esq (41:48.712)

As the, as when my guy got released from jail after giving the DNA shortly thereafter. Right. That's when I knew he's not getting charged. I think that we had done enough of a job of creating reasonable doubt, even though we were never formally with one exception of doing the DNA. I was in court with him on the invasion of privacy down in Salem.

 

I think I did a temporary restraining order for him with some women down in Salem as well. But we never, I think we created enough reasonable doubt utilizing the media and all the interviews and stuff that boring. And look, when you take the DNA, that's supposed to be your, the DNA matches. got a problem, right? We take the DNA and the DNA doesn't hit. I think that's when they started to maybe back off.

 

Yeah, what was the what was the Salem case about the invasion of privacy?

 

invasion of privacy, there was a camera in a location where there shouldn't have been a camera and captured some images, something, it was all in the media, it's all public record, but that was that. But I will tell you this, my client was, he presented himself to me one day one as someone that was innocent and somebody that was, in my opinion, not capable, not capable of committing these acts. And I stand by that today and that

 

I feel good based on my initial read and my initial gut reaction. Meeting him in the Salem County Jail was, this is not the guy. This is not the guy. Yeah.

 

Louis Casadia Esq (43:29.695)

Do you still talk to them at all to this day?

 

he and I are friends on Facebook. Gotcha. You know, every now and again, I'll, I'll get a comment or a message from him and haven't seen him in, I haven't seen him in probably a decade or so. Right. He would come down to the office because you know, A &E would do it. A &E did a documentary. He participated in a handful of these events, but I think he's moved on with his life and probably doesn't want to revisit it. And I know that there

 

Right. And I also don't think there is a, you know, massive amount of interest cases, almost 20 years old at this point. but I think that anybody that's talking about that case should focus on the women, their families, their children. These are real people. And the irony is about a month or so before the bodies were discovered.

 

I actually just told this story not too long ago to a woman that I was visiting in the Camden County Jail. I was in the Atlanta County Jail. This is back in 06. I'm waiting for my clients to come down and they weren't bringing the men down because they had women there. There were some female inmates and one of them was making small talk with me. Literally, I was sitting right across from her.

 

She was friendly, she was making jokes, and... She was, she made, I remembered her face, right? I remembered her face. When they found the bodies and they put these women on the newspaper, they put their faces, she was one of the four. And it was, it was chilling to me because she was so, you know, and personable. She obviously had whatever challenges she had in life, but...

 

James Leonard Esq (45:26.542)

to then say, that was one of the, you know, that's one of the four. I got to meet the husband of one of them. He was in the office. Very, very sad. You know, the one I know from the 48 hours had a young child who's probably now almost 30 years old, right? Like, you know, and I spent the last 20 years, 19 years without their mother. That's a hard thing. That's a hard thing.

 

when you say they should pay more attention to the victims, are you suggesting there's like some sort of connection between the four of them as to who did this?

 

Now, well, I think that I.

 

I think other than the fact that they may have been prostitutes.

 

I think that had this been for school teachers, God forbid, there would have been, we've got to, you know, we can't forget them. I think that over the years, because of the challenges that these women had with respect to what they did or what they were doing at the time, I want to say that they've been marginalized. I don't necessarily mean by law enforcement, because I, again, I stand by what I said. They are actively

 

James Leonard Esq (46:33.548)

trying to solve this, right? know that because I've had

 

I saw that firsthand from

 

media accounts focused more on the mystery of the who done it and less about these women were. And I feel that, you know, unfortunately there's a cautionary tale here, right? These women were involved with a lifestyle that's not a good lifestyle. Drugs are involved, I guess to some extent, but they're, they're put in these very vulnerable situations. And I just feel that

 

people should be aware of this is what happened. And I think it's a cautionary tale, but it's heartbreaking. I have in my office in another room on the wall, newspaper articles from that time. And when I go look at them, one of the articles very prominently has all four women's faces. So I see their faces several times a week. They're always on my mind. They're always on my mind as are their families. I pray for them.

 

And is there was like during the investigation. Well, I me ask you this first. Did you ever get any discovery regarding? I mean, I they never charged your clients. He probably got nothing right.

 

James Leonard Esq (47:52.886)

I did, I actually did because there were search warrants executed. got search warrant returns and I affidavits to a probable cause related to the search warrant. So I got, I did get that.

 

Was there any, I mean, I imagine they did some investigation into just the victim's background, like as far as like where they, who saw him last, like where they were, you know, did that amount to anything that pointed in any direction?

 

I think that circumstantially the proximity of the room that he was occupying to where the bodies were found, believe that was what they, that's what they were doing. That's my belief. That's my belief.

 

So like looking into each of these women, they were last seen in this over here. They were, do you think that that draw drew them to your client?

 

sort of

 

James Leonard Esq (48:49.23)

Well, no, think where they found the women drew them to my client because of where they were found. But I do know with respect to all four of them were, they were, I guess, known to frequent that area that I described where the original woman was that came up to my car. But I do know that one of them was at the Taj Mahal, which is now

 

the hard rock and I know that they know that because of a, they tracked the phone, right? They tracked the phone. So, and they know who that person was with at the casino, but I think the surveillance and whatnot showed that they left the casino and went with someone else, not that person and they don't know who that someone was.

 

Do you think in today's day and age, I mean you've been doing this for over 20 years, I've been doing it for you know, eight or nine.

 

It seems to me and tell me if you agree. It seems to me that it would be a lot more difficult in today's world to get away with something like this where number one, there's cameras everywhere. I mean, every case, you know, you know, as well as I do, you take a case on in Atlantic city and it's a high profile case, a homicide or something. There's pole cameras. There's cameras from businesses that are linked up to the ACPD where they pull them right out.

 

You have to assume that, well, we just talked about the Taj Mahal. Yeah. See that particular woman, presumably using a cell phone or somehow some way. Yeah. Had, you know, connected with this individual, got in a car and they went somewhere. All of that would have been, should have been on video today would be, but the rest of them presumably are picked up.

 

James Leonard Esq (50:49.25)

There's cameras at every intersection. Atlantic city's got cameras everywhere. I don't believe, I don't believe that that crime could happen that way for that period. just, I I think technology would preclude that.

 

It seems that you would really have to plan out every infinitesimal detail to get away. Because just these four women, mean, everyone has a smartphone now. Even people who, back in 2006, maybe couldn't afford one. Everyone has a smartphone.

 

The perfect example is look at the case up in New York with the guy that killed the healthcare CEO. Yeah. Everything's on video. And then they track him back to the rooming house. Right. And he lowers his mask for one second to smile at a clerk. And there's the picture that's broadcast all over. And then they get him into McDonald's in another state based on that pic. I mean, that's it.

 

There you go. mean, I-

 

Louis Casadia Esq (51:49.954)

Yeah, I mean, the first I mean, I tell you, I could tell you the first thing, you know, if this happened today, all those women, number one, you know, everyone has cell phones. So did anyone report them missing?

 

That's a question that I don't, don't believe I know the answer to. Yeah.

 

I mean, you know, I just, just from my.

 

doing what I did for seven years in Burlington, in Atlanta County, being a prosecutor. Some of the first things they would do now, okay, does the victim have a cell phone? What's the phone number? They're gonna go get a communications data warrant from the phone company. They're gonna get a log of all the different phone calls that were made. But most importantly, they're gonna get a history of the cell towers that they pinged off of. So it's gonna give them an approximate location, okay, and then they're gonna work their way backwards from there.

 

which depending on what the phone comp, some of the phone companies save text messages. They would theoretically be able to get text messages depending on what, on what phone company it is. So yeah, it'd like going back to what we were saying before. It just seems like it would be really hard for somebody to just kill these four women without leaving behind some sort of footprint, you know, either digitally or, or on video. which is a shame, yeah, I mean, hopefully, what do you think? What do you think their angle is?

 

James Leonard Esq (53:01.774)

you

 

Louis Casadia Esq (53:05.876)

now, you know, like that they're working on, you know, on the case. Like, where do you, where do you think they are? Like when they went, when they came to speak to you, you know, not to divulge anything that they may have told you not to mention, but I mean, did they ask you any questions that kind of give you an idea of like what direction they're going in?

 

Honestly, no, there was, it's an active investigation. They're looking into it, but no, there was no, know, I honestly, it would be pure speculation, but I can tell you that for, if I've been involved with that investigation in, and again, I want to be crystal clear. I basically told you everything I've been involved with. I'm actively involved. Nobody shares anything with me. I share with them, but nobody shares with me as they should.

 

Nobody should be sharing anything with me, but, I can tell you that in the beginning, in the early years, the timeframe that I'm talking to you about 07, 08, 09, it seemed like nobody wanted to hear from me because I think they wanted my guy. Right. That switched sometime, not too long after that.

 

And I would say that my encounters with them over the last decade or so have been more, what do you got? We'll look at it. We'll take it in. so there's definitely been a shift, but everybody that I've encountered, even the ones that I think were adverse to, you know, my client or me at that point, right. In my opinion, they all wanted to solve this case. They had their theories.

 

They might've thought this defense attorney is doing whatever he can do to create doubt around his client, which I was. But I was also giving them leads, doing my job, but I was also giving them what I thought were investigative leads. I I'm no Sherlock Holmes, but when somebody nicknames themselves after a serial killer that kills prostitutes and dumps them in water, I don't know. I'd take a look at that guy.

 

Louis Casadia Esq (54:58.275)

Yeah.

 

Louis Casadia Esq (55:17.302)

Yeah, well you would hope that, I mean did you, from your own knowledge, like did they go and talk to that guy or did they look into that guy?

 

They had all the information, what they did with it, I don't know. I don't know if that individual's alive or not, I don't know.

 

Yeah, who knows? I mean, certainly, I know that, you know, they've been making a lot more advances in just from personal experience, they've been making a lot of advances in DNA. So you wonder at some point, does that that advancements bridge a gap that they might have in in identifying a profile for the killer?

 

But you also have to say to yourself, we're going on 19 years. this person is might be deceased. Like witnesses might be, like, you know, we're talking about, think about all the prosecutors that I mentioned. Blitz is retired. Prosecutor Housel, God rest his soul, he passed away. Prosecutor McClain is still active. Prosecutor Tyner, they're no longer with the office, right?

 

That's right.

 

James Leonard Esq (56:24.226)

But the point being is there were investigators that have retired, some have passed. So the passage of time never helps with these cases. It just doesn't.

 

For sure, you gotta imagine there's gonna be a point where they're just gonna close it. And it may not be for a while from now, but at some point they're gonna say, you know what, this person is more than likely deceased. We've exhausted all investigative leads. there's really bearing like some sort of technological advancement that neither one of us can foresee. Like, you know, at some point they're probably gonna say like there's nothing more we can do. But it didn't seem like they'd reached that point yet. At least when I was...

 

And listen, my goal, my goal and my responsibility to all of this was to

 

prove in my opinion that they were wrong about my client. Right. And I think I, I think I did that. He's been free, for almost two decades and he remains free, living his life. So to that point I did my job and I know that they're doing theirs and I will say this is one that I can absolutely say I am rooting for them. I am rooting for them to find the killer. Right.

 

Yeah, I mean...

 

James Leonard Esq (57:42.328)

But I am absolutely certain that if they do, and God willing they do, that they're gonna find out that it wasn't my guy. But there shouldn't be somebody walking among us that's capable of taking the lives of four women and they just get away with that. That can't happen. So I'm rooting for the state to eventually find the person or persons responsible for those murders.

 

Is that trail where the women were, where the bodies were, were, were dumped? Like, that, is that, was that trail like, I don't know if hidden is the right word, but was it one of those things where if you didn't live in Atlantic city or live in the area that you wouldn't really know about it.

 

I can tell you this, I was born in Atlantic City, I spent a lot of time working in the casinos, spent a lot of time driving the Black Horse bike, the Atlantic City Expressway, I never knew what was between the two. I would assume that...

 

If you ever frequented those motels, you would know that it existed. I would assume that if you maybe did work on like, you know, the highways or you knew what was back there, but I would think that if you were a guy from New York, you would not know about that. So that's a very good question. The motel that we're talking about.

 

was called the Golden Key Motel. It's no longer there. It was raised. Yeah. It's just, you know, the footprint of it is still there. And so are some of the other places back there. But that's, you know, that's what it is. Right. Right.

 

Louis Casadia Esq (59:27.66)

Yeah, it makes you wonder, know, whoever did this at a minimum, at a minimum, like visited that area recreationally enough to know that this trail is there, which

 

Correct.

 

Does someone did that person stumble upon the trail? Did he find out about it and say, you know what, this would be a great spot to dump somebody or did he just know about it already? Yeah. That other individual, the river, river man, like he said he was from Florida. Did he move? Like, did you know, like, did he grow up in Florida or did he move down there?

 

So the document that he mailed to the woman was postmarked from Florida with a phony address. From what I gather, from what I gather, because I did some research on him, I got the impression that he was a little bit of a drifter. I gotcha. I don't know exactly where he was from. I can tell you that, and I'm not gonna put his name out there, but when you go down the rabbit hole of what was talked about,

 

The trade said it was burning, wasn't...

 

James Leonard Esq (01:00:33.442)

and you look his name up. Was his name.

 

Is his name public? did they report on him?

 

Nobody ever reported on him, but it's out there somewhere. can find anybody that really wants to go dig in. It's, you you can find who this person is or was whatever, but a family member actually posted on a message board to this individual. Hey, if you're still alive, this is my address, my number reach out to me. So I think even this individual's own family was looking for him. Yeah. Yeah.

 

Yeah, I mean, how old was he at the time?

 

If I'm not mistaken, he was probably in his fifties or sixties. He wasn't a super young man. So presumably now he's would be in his seventies or later, but I don't know that was necessarily living like, I don't know that he was going to the gym a lot and making it disappointments. You know?

 

Louis Casadia Esq (01:01:37.866)

Yeah, who knows if he is still alive, you know, who knows what kind of health issues he has at this point. But yeah, I hope that you hope they solve it one day. You know, you're you're I was rooting for when I was there, obviously, you know, I wasn't involved in in the investigation. I just knew they were doing it. And, you know, you always sat there and hope that maybe that

 

make a break in the case, but at this point, who knows?

 

some very good investigators, a good office of people that are compassionate and care. I will tell you that those that are currently assembled in the major crimes and whatnot, this would be the team that would bring it home, I would think. So.

 

Yeah, it's a shame. It's a shame when you know, you got a good team of people and they're going in there opening a file as 20 years old. There's only so much that, you know, like you read a report and you're thinking to yourself, well, what's the answer to question X? Well, that was never asked. Now that witness is deceased. Right. So it stinks to the extent that you got really good guys working the case now. Maybe if there had been a different attitude back then, they could have asked those questions that are

 

now.

 

Louis Casadia Esq (01:02:56.576)

Unfortunately, perhaps on ass forever. But Jim, I think we're we hit.

 

Lou, I appreciate you. wish you the best as you host this for as long as you do. You're stepping into some big shoes. Meg Warner, who started it, is someone that I have a tremendous amount of respect for. Little known fact, I know that this came up somewhere in something that she and I did together. Many, many years ago, when I was an intern,

 

In the Philadelphia DA's office in the late 90s, I was Meg Horner's intern. Not a lot of people know that. And then all these years later, we reconnected when she was a prosecutor in Cumberland and Cape May. And that is a very well-respected defense attorney. Can't find them better than Meg. I can tell you that. She's the best.

 

Bye.

 

Louis Casadia Esq (01:03:53.326)

I'll be telling well, I'll tell you similar story. I was I was Marissa McGarvey and and Emily bells in turn back in 2014 But Emily's over he she's in the Cumberland public defender's office now She's doing she's got the doing drug court and then you know, I'm sure you know Marissa's

 

ones there, two good ones for sure.

 

James Leonard Esq (01:04:19.68)

AG's office. So yes. So good lineage there. You learn from good ones and I learned from a good one. The other person that I interned for became the actual district attorney in one of the counties outside of Philadelphia. So listen, those internships are very important. You forge good relationships and you know, it is what it is.

 

Alright, Jim, well, it good talking to you, thanks for coming on- I'll see you in court the next time I see you. you soon! Bye-bye.

 

Likewise.

 

James Leonard Esq (01:04:49.61)

Alright, take care guys!

 

For more information or to contact Lewis Casadia, can go to LaceLaw.com. That's L-A-C-E-L-A-W dot com.

 

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